S7 E21 Gaslighting for God: How to Spot Spiritual Narcissism & Find Healthy Community with Becky Garrison
Pastor Tara Lamont Eastman: Hi there, friends of Holy Shenanigans Podcast. I'm so happy to be with you today to talk about God's shalom or the work of peace and healing in the world. Here at Holy Shenanigans, I love to talk about the sacred showing up in everyday life, and so today I'm excited to have special guest author Becky Garrison. Hello, Becky, and thank you so much for being here.
Becky Garrison: Thank you for having me. appreciate it
Pastor Tara Lamont Eastman: So Becky, could you say a little bit about who you are?
Becky Garrison: I'm a graduate of Yale Divinity School, Columbia University School of Social Work. I thought I was called to be a pastor, a in the Episcopal Church my late father was an Episcopal priest, I discovered, when I sold my first article to Wittenberg Door in 1994 that my calling was to be , someone using the tools of satire to , break down the people that are keeping people away from the Kingdom of God, people choosing profit over prophecy.
'Cause once you engage in the idol smashing, the glimpses of God can show forth. This journey took me to the Pacific Northwest, where I'm currently based I've been covering this area's craft culture, including beer, wine, cannabis, CBD, psychedelics, the regional festival scene, and the rise of what I call secular spiritual communities, and people that are getting together to make the world a better place and support each other.
Pastor Tara Lamont Eastman: You have released a new book, what inspired you to write it?
Becky Garrison: It's Gaslighting for God: A Satirical Guide to Save Yourself From Spiritual Narcissists. Starting around 2006, 2007, abuses started to become more and more public \ I discovered were these amazing works on religious trauma.
We were helping people to understand how to heal from these abuses. Survivors were telling their stories, so we understood there's this pattern, but nobody was coming out with what I would call a preventative guide. How do you identify the patterns when someone is not just self-centered, egotistical, but they have no empathy, they have no compassion?
That is not someone you should be entrusting your soul to, so how do we get people to stop this cycle, where they're going from one Christian celebrity to another, to really seeking to find healthy places to play?
Pastor Tara Lamont Eastman: I'm thinking about my own journey to ordained ministry, I feel particularly called as a pastor within a church system to cultivate communities of hope and healing and ethical spiritual care.
I rememberworking with a church camp, and I was so excited to see before camp started, they had a therapist come in and do education on trauma-informed care.
Becky Garrison: Oh, wow. when my parents, who were basically idealistic hippies. My dad was an Episcopal priest, sociology professor. He thought he could change the world. He was hanging out with students from SDS.
But then his alcoholism overrode his idealism, and when he died in the '70s, there was no research into alcoholism at all. So we knew nothing, The research into narcissism, the first books didn't really start coming out till 2016.
So the material wasn't there to help us understand what was going on when we were seeing these energies. It's exciting. To see they're actually realizing, yeah, we really need to start addressing this. In the same way we now look at alcoholism as normal. When someone says they have a drinking problem, we say, "Okay, here's how you can get help." I'm hoping for the same emergence into religious trauma.
These aren't difficult people. It's a personality disorder. A personality disorder cannot be cured. What it can be is once you identify it, you can say, "Okay, here's how I'm going to operate within the system knowing I'm dealing with a personality disorder."
A lot of therapists don't even acknowledge there's a thing called religious trauma. . And narcissism isn't really explored that much in the psychological literature, I'm looking forward to watching to see how the research is going to evolve, and that is such a positive sign to see that being held at a camp.
that gives me a lot of hope.
Pastor Tara Lamont Eastman: Yeah it did for me too. Part of my journey into ministry, I was working in social work that was informative and formative for meto keep open-hearted and empathy I was working with children being mistreated and abused in family systems, bringing that experience with trauma over in that
Becky Garrison: Mhm
Pastor Tara Lamont Eastman: has forever changed my perspective, for the better.
It's not easy work. It's work that takes energy, and it takes human heart and spirit to live into. But it's essential in addressing all of those spaces
Abuses are taking place. Thank you so much for giving that explanation about your hopes for the book, but I wonder if you could say a little bit more about the specific things that you hope to accomplish in the release of this book
Becky Garrison: I hope people have a greater awareness Cause when you deal with someone who's a narcissist, for example, their world becomes your world. And you can very easily lose a sense of self.
Especially people that are drawn to the church, we wanna help. We're empaths. We wanna volunteer. We wanna give of our time. But how do you know that what you're doing is actually going to have any benefit for the greater community, or are you just serving one person? And also, for those of us especially, like myself, I grew up with a family of alcoholics, who I now realize also had extreme narcissistic tendencies.
We're susceptible to wanting to find a new community, and to get the tools so that you understand, wow, this is not a healthy system. I need to exit this. This is not good for me. I need to get some help. We all have to acknowledge we've been in a state of trauma starting with COVID.
We've had global isolation for at least a year, two years. For some people I know still are not really going outside. We have an epidemic of loneliness. We're polarized beyond belief. , And when we're in that state, we're very susceptible to the influences of cult leaders. These are people that possess the dark triad. Psychopathy, narcissism, and Machiavellianism.
you see this in the rise of different movements. People want to align with this group, and I must hold onto this tribe at all costs, and I will put up with whatever this group is doing because I need to belong somewhere. But that is gonna be just as unhealthy in so many ways.
in this time of turmoil, to give people a guidebook. I can now watch the news with a clearer eye now that I can recognize, oh, that's narcissistic collapse, AKA toddler temper tantrums. And I don't personalize it, because it's a personality disorder.
it might hurt, but I can learn to depersonalize it because I know it's coming from a place that you don't give a dang about anybody but yourself. You're not really trying to enforce any kind of actual change.
Pastor Tara Lamont Eastman: For folks that are just learning about some of these terms, Becky, could you say more abouta definition of a narcissist
Becky Garrison: as opposed to someone who's self-centered and self-absorbed, and we all can get like that at times.
The difference is we are called out for hurting someone. You feel something inside of you. I should not have hurt someone. You might not do something. But you feel, "I hurt another human. It's heart to heart.
That is devoid in a narcissist. They have no personality beyond themselves. They have no ability to express empathy or compassion. There's a blank wall there. No self-awareness of how their actions impact other, along with a grandiose sense of self. They are better than you, and they must be better than you, and you must be demeaned by them being better than you.
The biggest red flag, and I always say this, in my 30-plus years of journalism, whenever covering a story: follow the money and you see what they worship. Where is the money going? Is there any financial transparency? Before you make a donation, can you ask where your money's going? And they say general expenses. That's BS. Where I am devoting my time and my talents, is there any fruit that's coming from this? Also, is there an accountability system, a structure in place?
I don't think I would, but let's say I was having a conflict with you for some reason. Where in your church could I go to talk about that without being punished? And in a church that's led by a narcissist, there's nowhere to go. It is that one-person show. How horizontal is the actual church leadership? Are the vestry put up on a pedestal or the elders? Or is there more of a, "They're just ordinary people that are gonna have communion with us," is it more of a circle or is it a pyramid?
Pastor Tara Lamont Eastman: Yeah. those are great things. Thank you. as a person who's experienced church trauma how do you attend to your own care?
Becky Garrison: there's a book that I recommend people pick up. It's by Tia Levings. It's called I Belong To Me, She's a survivor who has done an excellent job of unpacking the current research into religious trauma. this gives people a chance to see this from a survivor's perspective.
It's also to take advantage of different therapies. For me, EMDR was invaluable. I don't get triggered. I had done a lot of work on alcoholism, so I wasn't triggered around alcoholic energies. But when I would get around a narcissist, I had such a searching for community that I could be so easily triggered in.
Someone who says, "We're all gonna create this beautiful world together. We're all gonna create this beloved kingdom, a new way of being. And I would believe it because I wanted to be a part of a community that my dad was envisioning until his alcoholism took over.
And a lot of us are in that similar situations. Be conscious of what are you seeking for, get the help that you need through the different somatic therapies, I find I'm much more in a clearer position where I can say, " This isn't good for me, but it might be good for someone else.
This is where I feel really most comfortable. And also, this is a s- toxic situation full of people that have narcissistic energies. I better get the heck out of there."
Pastor Tara Lamont Eastman: a very, simple metaphor would be, like, if the house is on fire, you gotta get out.
Becky Garrison: If you are involved in a church project and something in your spidey sense tells you, listen to your body. As women especially, We ignore our bodies. We take care of everybody else's body, but we don't take care of our body.
If something doesn't feel right and you speak out, how do they respond? Do they listen to you or do they just tell you you're ruining the cool kids club? For me, I had to like really look at my fear of missing out. I had such FOMO being a nerdy kid from, high school, And now I can discover I'm alone but I'm not lonely, so I don't really have that fear of missing out. Oh, you did that lovely thing and you had a good time? Great, fine. I don't have to be at everything and do everything. I'm no longer the uber volunteer anymore, and it's a lot healthier
Pastor Tara Lamont Eastman: Thank you. Really, really helpful points. could you say more about satire as the tone to help address hurt? Why satire?
Becky Garrison: During 9/11 I volunteered at Ground Zero, and at the end of each shift I would go home and turn on HBO Comedy, and George Carlin would come on, and I would laugh my ass off. did a sequence where he discusses how he wants to die in an airplane crash because he wants to do something dramatic.
And I'm sitting here after having worked a shift at Ground Zero and laughing. there's a cathartic release when we can laugh about something it helps to kind of ease up the nervous system considerably.
We don't satirize the people in the pews. We satirize the person in the pulpit. We take those in power who have chosen profit over prophecy, those who are not putting out the words of God into their actual everyday life, and we also know that they're doing systems of abuse. And by doing satire, obviously you highlight the absolute ridiculousness of it.
We're smashing your idol, and when you smash the idol, the glimpses of God can then come through, but they can't come through as long as they're worshiping the false calf.
Pastor Tara Lamont Eastman: one of the quotes in your books that you used was T.S. Eliot,
Cocktail Hour. Half of the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm, but the harm does not interest them, or they do not see it, or they justify it because they are absorbed in an endless struggle to think well of themselves."
Becky Garrison: You cannot form a community with anyone who does not care if you're harmed or not. They want to make themselves feel good at all costs. They want to do the ministry programs that will get them the most attention. They will do whatever they need to do to ensure their next career move. Their biggest obsession is whatever career path they've chosen for themselves, whether it's tenured professor or bishop, elder, whatever they wanted, they're going look for that.
And other discussion of community is a smokescreen designed to mask their goals. And once you realize that, just don't go there expecting community. enjoy the sermon if you really like that. Enjoy the comedy show. But don't expect to have a community.
Where people get hurt, is when they hear someone preaching about the new way of being.
This is where I got hurt a lot. And all of a sudden, it's a mirage. In the end, if you really kiss someone's ass enough, you might get lucky enough to get a slot on a little panel or a little something, but they're gonna be the ringmaster.
There is no horizontal community that welcomes all. Your input is valued to the extent that you can give your time and talents and money. Once you leave, you're not gonna be valued.
Pastor Tara Lamont Eastman: Oh, Yeah. So we've talked about red flags to look out for,
Whether this is a religious or irreligious community where people are trying to build a true sense of community.
Do you have some green flags?
Becky Garrison: One of the green flags is I know where I can go if I don't feel safe. I feel I can talk. If I say no, my no is respected. Also, if I'm part of a group and I say to somebody, "I gotta be away for a little while, I'm not feeling well," does anybody give a hoot?
Does anybody care to look after me? And when I walk in, somebody say hi? Do they , recognize me? Do they welcome me? Do you get the sense that it's okay to be here? Or do you feel you have to try to impress anybody? Tune into your gut. What is your gut saying? Does this feel like one of those places where I can relax and be? Am I okay being me?
Pastor Tara Lamont Eastman: Thank you.
I talk a lot about this idea of holy shenanigans. It's the sacred orcommunity or an experience of wholeness or an experience of beauty that does no harm
Becky Garrison: Here in the Pacific Northwest, I've been covering the craft culture, and when you look at wine in particular, wine is an entheogen, so it's similar to cannabis and psychedelics, and that it can produce a spiritual experience, an elevated experience beyond just having a glass of wine that tastes absolutely delicious.
Mo Montaze, And his family, they run Montaze Vineyards Massarah Winery. You walk in there, there's a sense of true Persian hospitality that has been infused into the wine of the Persian culture for thousands of years, well over 3,000.
wines are named after different Persian deities. Andtaking these wines together in a community produces this elevated experience beyond belief. This has been helpful for me to reconnect to the people who are going through it in Iran,because he fled during the Iranian Revolution.
So this to me is making a connection of how we're all staying connected and being reminded of this elevated experience using a delicious drink of wine that has connected us for centuries.
Pastor Tara Lamont Eastman: Yeah, in my context, I think of that image of true communion, i've been talking a lot about what is the difference in kingdoms versus kindoms, K-I-N-D-O-M. - It's not a hierarchy, but it's a flat system.
A concept of shalom that I think in Western America people really struggle with
Becky Garrison: United States has a very unique thing. Warren Cole Smith calls this the Christian industrial complex, the Christian media conglomerate. They are positioning us to become Christian bestsellers. There's this push of, " You must invite this speaker in order to have a successful event.
You must do this. You must do that." Especially post-COVID, there has been a desire to get away from the influencer-driven culture of which the Christian celebrity are playing a major key part, and people are going, " This is garbage."
Since 2016, nones have been the largest religious voting block in the United States, and nobody wants to address that. They're not anti-God.
They're anti-institution. They're looking for something different, something better. They may find it in a church or a synagogue or a mosque, a temple, but they may find it in the Doug fir trees, like I do in the Pacific Northwest. They're gonna find the spirit where the spirit happens to be And I think there's a push towards that.
that to me gives me a lot of hope moving forward. You're starting to see a cracking of a lot of this fluff and people are like, "I need something more authentic." You're seeing that with Gen Z, that they're starting to say, I don't want either political party. I don't want your institutional church.
I might like that church over there because that person's very kind to me. I might like that particular politician 'cause they're good for me." But they're looking for where they can make the change at the grassroots among themselves. And that really is very positive... And you're starting to see abuses getting exposed.
I would be pointing out asabuses for decades, and people said, "You're crazy. You're wingnut." Every name in the book, got slammed at me. And yes, that did impact my psyche, and yes, I did respond, and yes, my responses are something I would take back if I could.
But now when I say someone is an abuser and I say they've committed on and offline abuses, they don't say, "Show me the evidence." they're like, "Tell me more."
There's been a shifting and we're starting to realize that yes, anecdotal surveys are putting the amount of US and Canadian clergy who score extremely high on the narcissism chart to the point of being dangerous at 25 40%.
The average population is one to three. The church has a crisis that they need to deal with. how do you weed out the leaders that are toxic? Every day I get bombarded with church abuses. This is not okay. women are starting to collectively say, "We're done.
No." this is gonna take some time, but I think we're starting to turn this Titanic around.
Pastor Tara Lamont Eastman: Becky, So you've talked about a couple different ways that you have seen this cracking open this move towards circles what is a word of hope or encouragement you can offer to somebody who's struggling today?
Becky Garrison: You're not alone.
It's similar to like when Rose McGowan went against Harvey Weinstein, nobody believed her. Be careful, be tender with your soul, but you're not alone.
There's other survivors out there. there are now resources and tools that can help you to find your way towards other like-minded souls
Pastor Tara Lamont Eastman: Thank you. so Becky, where can people find you, and where can people find your new book?
Becky Garrison: Google Lake Drive Books Gaslighting for God, the landing page for my book will come up that has all the places where you can purchase it. My Substack is Gaslighting for God. I'm also on Facebook at Becky Garrison Writer, and then I'm at Instagram on Becky_Garrison
Pastor Tara Lamont Eastman: Thank you so much for coming and visiting the Holy Shenanigans neighborhood. I hope you've enjoyed your visit.
Becky Garrison: Oh, it's been an absolute delight, and thank you for having me.
Pastor Tara Lamont Eastman: Until next time, my dear friends I give thanks that you are here with us for a adventure that turns our lives upside down for all people to experience love, connection, and belonging that is sincere and authentic. This is an unpredictable spiritual adventure that is always sacred but never, ever stuffy.
Until next time, may you be well, may you be at peace, and may you know that you are always beloved. And as Becky said, you are not alone
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