S7 E13 Two Pastors Talk About Pride with Rev. Holly Clark-Porter (Encore)
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Pastor Tara Lamont Eastman: [00:00:00] Hi there, dear hearts. Welcome to Holy Shenanigans Podcast. This is Tara Lamont Eastman, pastor, podcaster, and practitioner of holy shenanigans. June is finally here, and if you've been around here for a while, you'll know that every June I celebrate June Rainbows. June Rainbows is my way of affirming and celebrating the queer community in the world and the church.
Pastor Tara Lamont Eastman: Another way I celebrate Pride Month is to share stories of folks in the church that are from the queer community. For this episode, I'm dipping back into a wonderful conversation with Reverend Holly Clark-Porter. So I invite you to open your heart, your mind, and keep your eyes peeled for rainbows that you [00:01:00] see all around you this month.
Pastor Tara Lamont Eastman: So let's return to two pastors talking about pride.
Pastor Tara Lamont Eastman: so our, text for this coming Sunday is Matthew nine nine through 13 and 18 through 26. And it's a very interesting text. A lot of churches in the Presbyterian tradition and other mainline traditions. This is gonna be Pride Sunday a day that we celebrate the diversity of humanity and welcoming that humanity in God's church.
Pastor Tara Lamont Eastman: And the world. It's a really interesting text because it gives three examples of people that Jesus embraces and cares for. Beginning with a tax collector and then attending to the daughter of a synagogue leader, and then a woman who has been hemorrhaging for years and years. In all of these examples, Jesus [00:02:00] ministers to these folks from different backgrounds , and different expressions of humanity.
Pastor Tara Lamont Eastman: And I think that that's a really important scripture to lean into this pride. It's an expansive story and it challenges. Pretty much everybody in the reading to say, God loves this person and God loves this person and God loves this person.
Rev. Holly Clark-Porter: For this passage in the first place, I think it's about discipleship and who can be a. A person who holds that title and it's anyone. Right? That discipleship is for everyone and following Jesus is for anyone who wants to, and that, to me says so much about pride.
Rev. Holly Clark-Porter: . I know that there's people that say, well, we shouldn't call it pride in the church. That's wrong because pride is a sin. Well, it's the same thing as saying that you're proud of your son or your daughter or [00:03:00] your child. You don't have the kind of pride that the Bible is speaking of as a sin.
Rev. Holly Clark-Porter: You've got a genuine love for the way that you feel connected to that person, and that is what pride is to me. My first pride was in seminary, and I thought it was church. thought it was absolutely church to be at pride and to be taken in by an entire group of people. Just because you all shared this kind of sense of, ruin.
Rev. Holly Clark-Porter: People have hurt you. People have shamed your body. People have said that you weren't good, we got to come together and say, oh, yeah. Not only are we good, we are connected in ways that you will never understand. And that is pride to me, and that is what connects to the Matthew Scripture. I think it's about all these ruined bodies that are told that, not only are they worthy, they're [00:04:00] the ones doing the lesson teaching through their bodies.
Rev. Holly Clark-Porter: Jesus is able to say. What once people thought was no good is actually the point and. That's pride. To me, that is exactly what pride is. And when we say queer, when we take over the word queer, which you know is of course used to hurt people, now I can say I'm queer and you can't hurt me with that word because that is a word that I associate with.
Rev. Holly Clark-Porter: That is who I am and those are my people, that's what Jesus is saying. These are my people. There's something that's a part of something. so back off, bro. You know? Yeah.
Pastor Tara Lamont Eastman: For folks that may be learning a lot about pride, it might be their first Sunday in worship where they're like, oh, pride Sunday. What is that about? , or where did Pride begin? And, and what is, you know, they're just trying to [00:05:00] learn. What would you, say to them?
Rev. Holly Clark-Porter: Pride began at Stonewall, which was kind of a club, a hotel in New York where people would gather, who knew that they were queer and they were safe there.
Rev. Holly Clark-Porter: It was a place where they could come and just be themselves if they wanted to wear high heels. If they wanted to wear a skirt, if they wanted to wear a tie. If they wanted to love who they wanted to love, they could. Come there and do that and be a part of that community and the police would infiltrate it, and then they would arrest people.
Rev. Holly Clark-Porter: A woman could be arrested for wearing a tie, a man could be arrested for wearing a skirt. And if that's not dumb enough, it gets worse in that the cops were groping a woman to make sure that she was a woman. And we won't go into much more detail than that.
Rev. Holly Clark-Porter: But the people rioted against [00:06:00] that pain. They rioted for their. Sibling their community, and they said, we won't have it anymore. And so they fought back. It just broke out into a giant riot, a giant fight. All night. They fought all night. The police were dragging people down and beating people. And as the morning sun was coming up, there was a drag queen sitting on the stoops of a New York apartment and she looked over and there was a cop the ground was sparkling, almost like diamonds, she says with glass and the cop.
Rev. Holly Clark-Porter: Held his head and was hanging his head low, and they both just looked at each other and there was some sort of amazing understanding that. They no longer needed to fight each other and that they were both in this same horrible moment together they were sharing humanity. [00:07:00] And that is what we do when we come together.
Rev. Holly Clark-Porter: You are sharing humanity with the people you in church with. And when we have pride on Sunday mornings, it isn't. To tick you off. it isn't To shove something in your face. so that you can say, I am no longer fighting with the people who want to wear ties or skirts, or who want to love who they want to love.
Rev. Holly Clark-Porter: sitting on that stoop together and you're recognizing that we share this humanity together It just infuriates me when people say that that doesn't belong in the church. You know, pastor, you can put that on your own Facebook, but not ours as a disclaimer. My, my current church has not said that it has been told to me in the past.
Rev. Holly Clark-Porter: But it does because the church has [00:08:00] hurt so many people And harmed physically even my community. And unless we say it, unless we show them, then we're not making repairs. And so anytime a church flies the flag or invites pride Sunday, making an apology. And if you don't see the need for that, then you're missing the point of Jesus the woman who was bleeding.
Pastor Tara Lamont Eastman: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much for that beautiful story. In a way I could see that as an extension of Matthew nine.
Rev. Holly Clark-Porter: I know. It's perfect.
Pastor Tara Lamont Eastman: It is. Is there any way that you might encourage folks to engage with this Pride celebration if they're new to it?
Rev. Holly Clark-Porter: One of the things to do is to take it all in and to not make it about you and your hangups. If you [00:09:00] have hangups. If you still think that being queer is a sin do that work on your own. There's plenty. Of websites that you can find that will help you start looking on your own.
Rev. Holly Clark-Porter: I highly suggest a website, Twitter. called in Fleshed. It's run by two queer. I think they're both still. Claim the Methodist church. They started out doing queer liturgies and it is beautiful. And I think just reading through their work they have, they've reworked like Psalms for instance.
Rev. Holly Clark-Porter: I think just reading queer people's thoughts, reading queer people's work will help you understand on a deeper level. And I would say that it's. Fun to have fun. And that's what you're here to do. You're here to cheer people on. Don't cry. Don't cry. You know, we want your joy for us. We want your apology [00:10:00] to be your joy for us.
Rev. Holly Clark-Porter: We want your apology to be you showing up with your rainbow stuff on, even if you have no clue what it means, that means a lot to us.
Pastor Tara Lamont Eastman: Wow. I think that's a great way for folks to begin that journey. , is there anything within the Presbyterian Church a resource for folks , to learn?
Rev. Holly Clark-Porter: There are two organizations. One is called Covenant Network and the other is called More Light Presbyterians, and both are incredible organizations. More Light Presbyterians Have done the work of connecting the queer people to each other, especially queer pastors to each other in the P C U S A more light is a good place that has, you know, you can find things like vocabulary, which is very important to know and always changing. I myself, who I would like to call myself like a queer scholar, but I'm constantly behind so when you feel behind, [00:11:00] you are.
Rev. Holly Clark-Porter: And that's okay. We'll just keep catching up together. Covenant Network
Rev. Holly Clark-Porter: they've been around for a lot longer. They've been the bridge for the. Straight church to the queer church
Pastor Tara Lamont Eastman: Thank you for those resources. Is there anything else that you would like to share with our listeners around this topic of pride or inclusivity or celebration of humanity?
Rev. Holly Clark-Porter: One of the things that I think that the Pharisees and. Any of the people who Jesus kind of does battle with, of the things that they don't get is that life doesn't have to be so rigid and life is more than societal understanding. I think for a lot of folks, if you're listening and you're still not quite sure, put yourself in a place where. You understand it's [00:12:00] like to be hated just because
Pastor Tara Lamont Eastman: Hmm.
Rev. Holly Clark-Porter: that someone can look at your resume and it is full of accomplishments and straight A's, and they will hate you and do everything in their power you and to not let you in because of one thing. That doesn't hurt anyone else. I think that's what I would say to folks is that simply let go. When I let go, if I could tell this story real
Rev. Holly Clark-Porter: quick,
Pastor Tara Lamont Eastman: Please
Rev. Holly Clark-Porter: when I went into seminary, I was presenting as straight and. I didn't like hugging people. I didn't like to cry. I didn't like to be emotional. I was pretty buttoned down.
Rev. Holly Clark-Porter: My friends called me Karen, from Will and Grace, you know, kind of the ice queen. I took pride in that. I loved being [00:13:00] ice queen. And then I got to seminary. And seminary is actually where I came out because I felt the love of God so fully. And when I came out, all of a sudden, I was able to hug people.
Rev. Holly Clark-Porter: I was able to cry. I was able to love people more, and it's just so much better when you let go and you don't let yourself be guarded by the things that you think to be, or the things that you've been taught when you let yourself be and say, oh, okay. That person that goes by, they is wearing a really strange outfit, and I bet they're amazing. You just gotta let go
Pastor Tara Lamont Eastman: yeah, yeah. One of my favorite parts of the movie Mary Poppins is when she first arrived and she's placing [00:14:00] a. That giant carpet bag on the table and the kids are all around her and she's taking all these crazy things out of the bag, you know,
Rev. Holly Clark-Porter: Oh yeah.
Pastor Tara Lamont Eastman: and she says, never judged by appearances.
Pastor Tara Lamont Eastman: Especially carpet bags, which. Is a very bold statement of justice about folks who had immigrated, right? Because there are a certain population of folks, Irish, Welsh, Scottish that had been given that term, right? And it was not a positive term. But how Mary Poppins in this story.
Pastor Tara Lamont Eastman: Redeems that
Rev. Holly Clark-Porter: That is brilliant.
Pastor Tara Lamont Eastman: If you've ever looked at a carpet bag, they, they're gorgeous. They're gorgeous. It's like a little bit of pride. I know. It is. It's a pride bag. It just is.
Rev. Holly Clark-Porter: I love it. This is great revelations.
Pastor Tara Lamont Eastman: [00:15:00] Holly, I have a poem I wanna share with you . When this podcast started, there was a particular liturgy. It followed, you know, there would be a text reading and then a story of the holy shenanigans of the Holy Spirit, and usually a poem or song. And poetry is one of those things that is so sacred.
Pastor Tara Lamont Eastman: For me and this one came to me and I knew the first two lines of it for a very long time, and I actually have some artwork it's a piece from Rumi and the first phrase is love is the whole thing. We are only the pieces, but. I wanna share this as a blessing for you, this pride as well as for everyone who's listening.
Pastor Tara Lamont Eastman: As we learn new things, as we grow in our spirituality with God, and we learn to be wider thinkers and lovers of people, I think this is particularly helpful. So love is the whole thing. [00:16:00] We are only the Pieces. Love is the sea of no end. We are a drop of it. God brings forth hundreds of proofs We can find our way only through them. The sky turns only with love. Without love, even the stars are eclipsed, extinguished with love. Hunched back doll becomes eif. Once Eli loses love it turns into doll. The word is the fountain of life because it originates from the love of the knowledge of the truth of things. Don't keep love away from your soul so that your good deeds may bear fruit and keep growing.
Pastor Tara Lamont Eastman: We could probably talk about this poem for a long time.
Pastor Tara Lamont Eastman: Doll means to be split or [00:17:00] divided.
Pastor Tara Lamont Eastman: And Elif is to be honest and kind. That's an expansive call.
Rev. Holly Clark-Porter: Yes. My mind was going all sorts of places. Thank you. That was beautiful. You and Rumi.
Pastor Tara Lamont Eastman: Thank you so much, Holly for joining us for Holy Shenanigans Podcast.
Rev. Holly Clark-Porter: Thank you so much for doing this, for your work, for your laughter, for your joy, and for your pride for being this called people.
Pastor Tara Lamont Eastman: Indeed.
Pastor Tara Lamont Eastman: I am your Holy Shenanigans muse, Tara Lamont Eastman. Thank you for joining me for Holy Shenanigans that surprise, encourage, redirect, and call us all to the dance floor in the name of love.
Pastor Tara Lamont Eastman: This is an unpredictable spiritual adventure that is always sacred, but never stuffy. Thanks always to Ian Eastman for sound production and to Reverend Holly Clark [00:18:00] Porter for her conversation with me. If you've enjoyed this episode of Holy Shenanigans podcast, I invite you to share it with a friend.
Pastor Tara Lamont Eastman: Thank you for helping us to continue to grow. One more thing. If you'd like to join me for June Rainbows, this is how you can do it. Simply take photos all month long that you find around you that have rainbows in them, and when posting them to your social media, simply use the hashtag JuneRainbows. If you need some examples, come on over to my Instagram at holyshenaniganspodcast.
Pastor Tara Lamont Eastman: Until next time, let's keep our hearts and minds and eyes open for all the beautiful rainbows that this month gives us. May you be well, may you be at peace, and may you know that you are always beloved by God
