Tara: [00:00:00] Welcome to Holy Shenanigans podcast. I'm your muse, Tara Lamond Eastman, a pastor, a podcaster, and practitioner of Holy Shenanigans. In the Holy Shenanigans neighborhood, we are on the lookout for the sacred showing up in everyday life. And this is what we call Holy Shenanigans. In this episode, I welcome Bruce Reyes Chow.
Tara: Bruce is a sought after speaker and writer on the topics of faith. Culture, politics, race, technology, and pop culture. He also hosts the podcast, BRC and Friends, and has authored five books. Most recently, everything good about God is true, choosing faith. Which also happens to be the topic of this conversation today.
Tara Lamont Eastman: Bruce.
Tara Lamont Eastman: I'm so excited to [00:01:00] have you here with us today.
Bruce Reyes-Chow Great. Thanks for having me.
Tara Lamont Eastman: Could you, for folks who don't know you, Bruce, tell us a little bit about who you are in the world.
Bruce Reyes-Chow Yeah. So my name is Bruce Reyes Chiao. I use he, him proteomes. I'm out in the West coast. So I'm in San Jose, California, but I'm really in Northern California, born and raised here, Sacramento and Stockton pastor in the Presbyterian church USA since 1995, which. Feels like a very long time. So I'm, I am officially old Unless I hang out with my own Presbyterians, and then I'm still young, which is a sad commentary on our denomination.
Bruce Reyes-Chow But three kids all adults, and for the most part out of the house a couple dogs. I write, and speak, and consult, and try to really just enjoy life in meaningful ways, pretty involved politics and all the kind of social justice movements in the area. Yeah, and have a new book coming out, which I'm very excited about.
Tara Lamont Eastman: So what is the name of the new book,
Bruce Reyes-Chow Everything good about God is true. Choosing faith. And it is from Broadleaf Books.
Bruce Reyes-Chow This was not the original title. I went to them with something else that [00:02:00] was a little more memoir ish. And they're like, this is not memoir ish. We want it to be something more than that. I'm like, well, my life is pretty awesome. How could that not? Possibly be enough in any case. So they said, what about this?
Bruce Reyes-Chow And basically said to me we do not want to read another book on deconstruction. So what's next? I had written some stuff around some faith formation, spiritual journey things. And that's what the book is framed around. And so they asked me to, yeah. To flesh out what's next.
Bruce Reyes-Chow And then they came back with this title for me. And I was like, Oh, it didn't sit with me at the very beginning. Cause it's like, is everything about God? Good like in all the ways that you could begin to play that out. And as I began to write more, I, began to really think like, yeah, you know, I think we've been framed with this idea to buy into all the fear about God and how God is terrible.
Bruce Reyes-Chow And so we, center our faith. So often on what we are not, and this book is 95 percent based [00:03:00] on what we are and what we believe. I don't dismiss and I acknowledge that there's faith out there. That is. Terrible and dangerous and toxic, but that doesn't drive this book in my Version of Christianity.
Bruce Reyes-Chow So I really was like, , God is good and it's true. And here's what it means for our lives. recommitted myself to my own faith in the writing of this book.
Bruce Reyes-Chow Kind of like a sermon should transform the, preacher writing this book has done that for me.
Tara Lamont Eastman: Yeah. Years ago I worked on a curriculum project and it was called the Connect Bible. and it was geared for kids that were pre confirmation age to help them understand the themes of goodness throughout the Old Testament and into the New Testament. Starting from Genesis, , and it was good and it was good.
Tara Lamont Eastman: It's good. And I remember in, working on that project, it was really helpful to reframe my perspective on, some of [00:04:00] those, Oh, you know, we don't look at the old Testament anymore because it was all this anger, you know, unwrapped and war but that there were and are connections of good throughout the whole canon of scripture.
Bruce Reyes-Chow We so easily frame things on negativity. And I'm not dismissing how. Faith has been terrible to people, but that doesn't get to have the last word or be the center of what is next. Like, that's something we work with and deal with. But really, I just noticed a lot of conversations about Christianity.
Bruce Reyes-Chow I just feel like conservative, right wing, whatever we want to describe it, they get to be part of the conversation far too much than they deserve. I don't have any of that experience in my own faith life. So , I can't speak from that. And in some ways it doesn't define me.
Bruce Reyes-Chow It doesn't center my past or, future faith. And so hoping that this gives us a little bit of. Entry for folks like that, but also this is really [00:05:00] just a 101 Christianity book that many people could have written But I just happen to write at first
Bruce Reyes-Chow You know for folks who have come out of a tradition and had to kind of tear it all down and are now thinking what's next That it's going to give language again. That is not based on fear and shame Around faith then and you get to choose it versus it being kind of just given to you and you have to accept it For some it's going to be a refresher of oh, that's right I didn't know that or they're gonna be like, we keep saying these words in church I don't know what that means.
Bruce Reyes-Chow So they'll look it up but primarily I was a church planter for most of my pastoral ministry. This is the book I always wanted to hand somebody when they came in and actually genuinely Like, we are super unchurched, meaning we actually don't have any church and I'm like, Oh, well, if you just want some things to jump off of, here you go.
Bruce Reyes-Chow I try to take every. theological Concept thing that happens and try to explain it in accessible playful but, , significant ways so that folks kind of [00:06:00] get this broad sweeping and then they can choose, right?
Bruce Reyes-Chow I'm not trying to convince you anything. Here's what I believe. Here's what the folks have believed for a long time. And it's a choice I make every day. So, I'm hoping to give people some, ways to make those choices well.
Tara Lamont Eastman: Thank you for this resource. So in my work as a pastor, there's lots of times where I'm cobbling things together. Like, oh, here's this piece on baptism
Bruce Reyes-Chow You no longer need to do that.
Bruce Reyes-Chow I think the disclaimer list for kind of mainline progressive Christians is much lower on this book. Like you don't have to say, Oh, here's a book, but you know, it's kind of academic, but it's written by a person that may not like whatever, but it, I think for me it, but you know, it, it kind of this polemic between Jesus and justice.
Bruce Reyes-Chow You don't have to say any of that on this one. This is just one faith that it's all interwoven. If you're, you know, I, it I'm so excited if you can't tell about.
Tara Lamont Eastman: as, as I hear more about it, I'm like, oh my goodness, thank you so much for saving all of [00:07:00] us, all of this time.
Bruce Reyes-Chow started out as 70, 000 words and my editor's like, , you contracted for 40 and I'm like, Oh, I thought you, maybe you just published seven. He's like, we're not doing that. It was a monstrosity of love but really so interesting to try to hone down, you know, what it's like to write and have to write less, but it was great.
Bruce Reyes-Chow I just feel like, okay, if somebody just has a moment. Yeah. And I hope it's, like, one builds on the other, so they'll just kind of not put it down, but at the same time, Baptism, here's a good little thing on it. This, here's a good little thing on it. And, that's,
Bruce Reyes-Chow what I'm hoping it is.
Tara Lamont Eastman: I just want to read this aloud for folks that are still trying to engage with the focus of the book. It says a better story of faith exists. And it has a capacity to heal the world. If only we embrace, articulate and live it more courageously. That sounds like a prayer that in some way or another bounces around my head and heart often,[00:08:00]
Bruce Reyes-Chow Yeah, I'm sure. I
Tara Lamont Eastman: our faith or our spirituality to heal the world. Yeah.
Bruce Reyes-Chow mean, it's bold, right? Folks will be, I think, surprised by some of what I have in there, but I just, like, if, if I didn't believe in some miraculous otherworldly, unhumanly attainable hope, we could just say, well, this is it.
Bruce Reyes-Chow Like I'm going to pull up , in my privileged space and pretend that everything is okay. Or we're like, no, actually things could get better. And there's a section I want to make very clear for folks. It could be worse if it weren't for the work of our ancestors, generations before us. That so often we say, that's the worst it's ever been. I'm like, well, maybe it feels like that and it could be in some sections, but also it could be so much worse. The people before us didn't do work. And so our responsibility is now to do that work for that next generation so that they can look back and say, you, stood on the right side of history.
Bruce Reyes-Chow You, did things, even though, you know, wouldn't be enough. You were there and you were doing things. And that's another [00:09:00] part of that healing the world that we, I think sometimes. Forget that the world has been healed and we continue in that kind of legacy for many of us.
Tara Lamont Eastman: Yeah. I mean, like Dr. King, the arc is long, but it bends towards justice,
Bruce Reyes-Chow Yep.
Tara Lamont Eastman: But we also need to help bend it.
Bruce Reyes-Chow Yep. Exactly. It's been bent. We got to keep bending may not be in our lifetime But yes
Tara Lamont Eastman: Yeah, yes. And so I'll say more about this towards the end. I, love to write poems or blessings for folks. And I was actually working on a piece for upcoming Sunday all around this idea of transfiguration change but also that invitation to come down from the mountain and to come and see what God or the divine is calling us into in every day.
Tara Lamont Eastman: the name of the podcast is Holy Shenanigans and I understand that as the work of the Holy Spirit in everyday life. And I wonder if you have a [00:10:00] Holy Shenanigans story that you would just like to,
Tara Lamont Eastman: share with audience today?
Bruce Reyes-Chow What? I love that word. I just like shenanigans. It's like kerfuffle shenanigans. Like there's all these great words. It's just like, you know exactly what it is. So shennan for me is how do you kind of mess with stuff? Without burning it down. You're still in the system in many ways you are Messing around with stuff in here, but you love it. So you're not wanting it to kind of go away and so I've always felt like my role in my denomination, the Presbyterian Church USA, was to not pretend any of the crazy stuff that I was doing around technology was a big deal.
Bruce Reyes-Chow Even though I knew that it was, for people. I was the moderator of our denomination, which was about 15 years ago. Which was for those who are not Presbyterian don't care. I was the youngest at that time and I used Facebook and I had a blog and I was accused of cheating basically because 15 years ago a blog was unfair connecting with the voting people.
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:11:00] It was like, huh, it's interesting when the rest of the world is already doing this. But , I would always just do stuff as if it was normal. I knew that people would just lose their minds when, like, why is there a blog? Like, what, what is this thing? I brought our denomination on to Twitter more than anybody else had.
Bruce Reyes-Chow My co person and I, we used Facebook for a bunch of things and young adults and pastors my age that Gen X finally saw themselves reflected in that. And I knew perfectly well that it was going to disrupt things in a way, but I loved it. . I'm doing it because I love my denomination.
Bruce Reyes-Chow And I, think how we exhibit who we are is, great, but we need to do it differently. So that has always been on one of my things. It's like, I'm just going to do it and not ask for permission. And when, pandemic hit, our first Sunday, I'm like, let's just try communion.
Bruce Reyes-Chow Everybody go grab some bread, go grab whatever you got, show us your pop tart to your beer. If it's 10 in the morning, I don't know if you want to be drinking beer, but [00:12:00] whatever. , but we just went, we're going to have communion. And you know, all these statements were made, don't have communion online.
Bruce Reyes-Chow It's not real, , from across everyone. And there are a bunch of us, I'm sure you were in the same way. Like, Oh my goodness, people, seriously. I had enough name recognition within my. Kind of people that I got basically a note saying, you're basically leading people astray and like whatever We're doing communion online.
Bruce Reyes-Chow So that's the kind of stuff that I love to do People know that I love my church and my denomination So it's never about again burning it all down, but it is about pushing us quit taking ourselves quite so seriously And allow the spirit to break out when we're trying to kind of confine it.
Tara Lamont Eastman: Yeah. Yeah. No, that, That resonates a lot for me.
Tara Lamont Eastman: Um,
Tara Lamont Eastman: My bishop and I had a agree to disagree conversation. But it was respectful , and, we did fast from communion for a while but I had parishioners come to me , elders of the church , and say, Pastor, , I'm [00:13:00] longing for communion.
Bruce Reyes-Chow Yeah.
Tara Lamont Eastman: I said, know what? The gospel and what Jesus did is miraculous, and there's got to be a way for this to work.
Bruce Reyes-Chow Oh, I remember when we did it, we did it the first Sunday of pandemic I just remember.
Bruce Reyes-Chow The shock of everybody stay home. We had to train everybody on zoom. We have people out and do all you remember all that wild chaotic time. Right? But when I said, okay, now we're gonna have community. And I know this is weird. Just go find something that is around. It's the bread of the people, whatever it may be.
Bruce Reyes-Chow And then something. The drink, whatever it may be, and you can almost feel the audible like, Oh, we're going to be okay, , it's going to be all right. That's probably one of mine.
Bruce Reyes-Chow I've done other crazy, not as meaningful , shenanigans, shenanigans. I'm trying to just make up words now. It's
Tara Lamont Eastman: right.
Bruce Reyes-Chow It's an adverb.
Tara Lamont Eastman: It's, it's all of those things. . It's refreshing to talk with you about this because what you're sharing about, you know, wanting to be a holy shenanigator in the [00:14:00] system. I had a little bit of a personal epiphany. I'm like, Oh yes, that's what I've been trying to do.
Bruce Reyes-Chow Awesome.
Tara Lamont Eastman: I love the church. I want the church to be healthy and whole, but also live into really its call. In its fullness
Bruce Reyes-Chow I know you're serving in a Presbyterian setting right now So, you know the number one thing in our book of order It is that we're to be the church even to the risk of our own death
Tara Lamont Eastman: yes.
Bruce Reyes-Chow That's, that's hard. I mean, it's hard for anybody. But at the end of the day, that's what we're called to do.
Bruce Reyes-Chow And we used to do it much more, I think, and there are still some places, certainly they're doing it, but be alive at the risk of your own death. And believe that you're resurrection people that's doesn't have the last word anyway,
Tara Lamont Eastman: Yeah. I mean stealing from Jesus this word, but you know, I've come to give life to the full yeah.
Bruce Reyes-Chow What I hope folks will do is No longer abdicate the Christian space to a theology that leads into politics and culture and all these [00:15:00] things that is more destructive than healing and we know it when we see it. And yet, I think those in the kind of this middle of the road to laughter, how we want to describe it.
Bruce Reyes-Chow feel like there's only one way to share the faith and that's the way that this other side has decided to define it and i think actually people just need to talk about their faith more and i will almost guarantee people that they will not just go up to ransom random person on a cold call in a coffee shop and say have you received jesus christ like that is that actually what you're gonna do like was that your first go to boost I'm like, no, your first go to move is while you're in a conversation, you're like, oh, I was at church, or I've been doing this, and somebody goes, oh, you go to church, if the relationship is there, people are not going to think you're some, you know, wild person, and I'm like, just trust your relationships, but Talk about your faith.
Bruce Reyes-Chow Because it's good, if it's transformed your life, how could you not just have it be? I mean, I'm part of the Orange [00:16:00] Theory cult. People are part of, whatever things they do in life, and they talk about it incessantly. And yet, sometimes our faith, we're like, oh, but that, right?
Bruce Reyes-Chow Just, be, be bolder people, be bolder.
Tara Lamont Eastman: be bolder. Be bolder. I think that's a wonderful word of encouragement and affirmation even as we are in this Lenten into Easter journey,
Bruce Reyes-Chow Yep.
Tara Lamont Eastman: How can folks connect with your work, Bruce?
Bruce Reyes-Chow I am at B Reyes Chow on everything. So people have sometimes said to me, well, we couldn't find you. I'm like, you didn't look. I'm the only Reyes hyphen Chow in the world. And so really I'm very easy to find.
Bruce Reyes-Chow So I've had to lock things down on occasion. So yeah, B Reyes Chow everywhere. And the books are out wherever you buy books. March 5th as the release. And I'll be doing a book tour all the way through June from all over the country.
That is exciting. I'm very, glad to have this conversation with you today. And before I let you go was writing this morning [00:17:00] and I think that this may be good way for us to wrap up our conversation. And it's a. Brand new poem called come and see people be kind.
Tara Lamont Eastman: I just finished it like a couple hours ago. But I think that Bruce, this might speak to the work that you're hoping that this book can accomplish in the world, as well as the the invocation you give to be bold. Come and see. Come and see a relay of love. Look at all the runners through the eyes of love. Moving together as communities set free. Let's come home to love for early blessings to be. There are hills to climb. There are miracles to see. High places are beautiful, but not where we're called. Love calls us down the mountain.
Tara Lamont Eastman: Come and see. Come and be a relay of love. Each person a messenger [00:18:00] carrying change from above. Sharing a kindness, a blessing, a smile. Down into the valley and in every mile. There are hills to climb, there are miracles to see. High places are beautiful, but not where we're called. Love calls us down the mountain.
Tara Lamont Eastman: Come and see. Come and cheer on the relay of love in wisdom and mercy and hope thereof. Faithfulness of calling and power to be a community beloved, anointed, and
Bruce Reyes-Chow Lovely. That's awesome.
Tara Lamont Eastman: Thank you.
Bruce Reyes-Chow That's, good stuff.
Tara Lamont Eastman: So hopefully we can be living into that in this Lent
Tara Lamont Eastman: and beyond. To be. That wise anointed and free community inspired by the love and mercy of [00:19:00] God,
Bruce Reyes-Chow Amen. Amen.
Tara Lamont Eastman: So blessings to you on this book, blessings to you on the tour that is coming up. And I'm really glad that we had this conversation today
Tara Lamont Eastman: and a chance to catch up.
Bruce Reyes-Chow Yeah. Glad to reconnect
Bruce Reyes-Chow Thank you for having me on
Tara Lamont Eastman: Friends, thank you so much for listening to our conversation today and being a part of this calling to be holy shenanigators, to be always sacred and never, ever stuffy.
Tara: I'm your Holy Shenanigans muse, Tara Lamont Eastman. Thank you for joining us this week for Holy Shenanigans that surprise, encourage, redirect, and turn life upside down, all in the name of love. This is an unpredictable spiritual adventure that is always sacred, but never stuffy. Thanks to Ian Eastman for sound editing and Bruce Reyes Chow for this conversation, as well as to HSP listeners for [00:20:00] supporting our work with this podcast by way of www.
Tara: buymeacoffee. com backslash Tara L Eastman.
Tara: Next time at Holy Shenanigans podcast, join me for a conversation on how writing is a spiritual practice with the Reverend Dr. Eileen Campbell Reed. Be sure to listen next time as you hear more about The Writing Table and how writing is a spiritual practice.
Tara Lamont Eastman: Be well, be at peace and know that you are always beloved.