Into the Wild with Tony Jones

This week Tara discusses spirituality and nature with special guest Tony Jones. They reminisce about the  the emergent church movement, the intersection of faith and nature, and even the role of dogs in spiritual journeys. Tony shares insights from his new book 'God of the Wild Places' and reflects on finding God in the wilderness. The conversation touches on the limitations of organized religion and the transformative power of reconnecting with the natural world. The episode concludes with a blessing invoking the presence of the divine in creation.

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Transcript

Tara: [00:00:00] Hi there, and welcome to Holy Shenanigans. I'm your muse, Tara Lamont Eastman, a pastor, a podcaster, and practitioner of Holy Shenanigans. Here at HSP, we encourage the spiritual practice of looking and listening for the sacred in everyday life. This is what we call Holy Shenanigans. The season of Spring has finally arrived in the Northeast.

Tara: Tulips and daffodils are beginning to bloom. And spring fever is in the air. This change of season is calling me out of the house into the great outdoors and wandering in my local spots of wilderness to help me heed this call into the great outdoors is my colleague, Tony Jones, otherwise known as Reverend Hunter.

Tara: Tony is [00:01:00] a sought after speaker and consultant and is co host of the podcast Emerged. Tony writes about topics of Christian spirituality and the outdoors and is the author of the new book The God of the Wild Places. So let's take some time to wander into the wild places Shall we?

Tara: Hi there, Tony. It's so good to have you here with us at Holy Shenanigans podcast 

Tony Jones: Hey, it's great to be here and great to see you hear your voice and be reconnected. Thanks for having me.

Tara: Oh, you're welcome. . So Tony, for those that don't know about emerging village or perhaps about the work that you do, could you share a little bit of what you do in the world?

Tony Jones: Yeah. Emerging village was a time that brought a lot of us together. I'm currently working on a podcast called emerged, which is an oral history of the emerging church movement. Like you [00:02:00] already kind of. Intimated. It's hard to believe it was 25 years ago, it's crazy, but it was a movement that ran its course for 10 or 15 years from maybe 99, 2000 till 2015, really, I mean, it's peak was probably 05 to 08 Names like Brian McLaren, Phyllis Tickle, Nadia Boltz Weber, Rachel Held Evans, Rob Bell, those were the big names who were associated with it frankly, it was an attempt to rethink the church in America an attempt to say our culture is changing very quickly and the church seems quite stubborn and intractable.

Tony Jones: And so the way I sometimes talk about it now is that a group of friends and I threw ourselves at a brick wall hoping we could knock it over and we did not succeed.

Tony Jones: We tried. At least we tried. Not everybody maybe shares this opinion, but my [00:03:00] opinion is the church was intransigent.

Tony Jones: And either incapable of or unwilling to change. So , that was a big part of my life as a minister, as a theologian in my thirties and forties. Yeah.

Tara: And your journey has continued and some interesting ways. And we'll get to that in a moment, but I thought perhaps we could center our conversation with a quote from St. Hildegard you know, just a saint from the Middle Ages for the study. And she says this, the word is living, being spirit and all verdant greening, all creativity.

Tara: This word manifests itself in every creature. I think about this, and the work of Hildegard because nature really speaks to some folks in a spiritual sense, 

Tara: Organized religion might think that's a new thing.

Tara: But if Hildegard was talking about this [00:04:00] in 1050, this is not a new idea. Yes,

Tony Jones: think about what was happening in the 11th century. Just think about the people around Hildegard. I mean, she was obviously a genius. You know, theologian, composer, et cetera, and literate, obviously very literate. But in the 11th century, how many people who lived in her village, sitting with her at Mass, were literate, the minority.

Tony Jones: Most people were not literate. We take for granted, having a Bible or 20 on our shelves. You're probably like me and have like 20 Bibles or more. We're just a hyper, hyper literate society. That's good. I mean, it's good that kids go to, you know, public schools and learn how to read and

Tara: yes, yes.

Tony Jones: all for it.

Tony Jones: But it has. Let us to idolize the [00:05:00] text, maybe over other avenues that our ancestors experience the divine, because if you literally can't read, you're not going to find God in the words of the text of the scripture. I mean, you're going to hear the words , of the scripture read to you on Sunday at mass, but you're not going to go home and read it.

Tony Jones: You know you're not going to read books by anybody because you can't read.

Tara: right.

Tony Jones: And so I think Hildegard , in her day, a quote like that , she's just acknowledging because of the lack of literacy, I think people were really much more attuned to finding the divine. In their environment. And also, in the 11th century, the world was not yet urbanized.

Tony Jones: The world was not yet industrialized. , everybody in her world would have been very acquainted with death , of their fellow human beings they would have watched animals killed and butchered [00:06:00] on a daily basis. To eat, they were a much more agricultural, kind of bucolic society.

Tony Jones: So yeah, , I love that you pulled that quote because a lot of what I've written about in this book, and frankly a lot of my spiritual journey of late, is trying to be more in touch with the way my ancestors lived, that I felt like I'd lost touch with.

Tara: Mm. That's wonderful. So the name of this new book , Tony, is God of the Wild Places and Rediscovering the Divine in the Untamed Outdoors. And the, tagline for this is a pastor walks out of the church and into the woods in pursuit of the God he's lost. could you say a little bit more about that journey?

Tony Jones: It's rooted in the fact that I was, you know, kind of like a, B list or C list Christian celebrity because of this emergent movement that you and I were both part of. , I was writing books and I was [00:07:00] speaking in big pulpits and getting flown to conferences around the world.

Tony Jones: But then like so many people do, I went through a real grievous, end of a relationship in a marriage that ended and ended badly. And then after several years of strife, it was rekindled in a custody fight. Although I ended up getting sole custody of my kids, it wasn't without a cost and the cost was that, I pretty much lost my career as a result of that fight, both.

Tony Jones: Things that I did poorly and the things that my ex did poorly and that the internet was a place to air grievances at the time. Sometimes you're asked like, Oh, , would you sacrifice your career for your family? And you're like, of course I would , family comes first.

Tony Jones: For me, that wasn't a hypothetical. I was like, I did sacrifice my career for my family and it wasn't even really a choice. But in the course of [00:08:00] rescuing my kids, I lost my career. And there wasn't really a place in the church for me anymore. Not in church leadership.

Tony Jones: Had I been a lay person, I'm sure the church would have cared for me.

Tony Jones: But I wasn't, I was like kind of a celebrity pastor. And as a result of that the church didn't know how to care for me, I guess the church did not care for me. And so I found myself great comfort and solace more and more when I was outdoors and less and less when I was indoors.

Tony Jones: And the book is a result of my reflections on that. , I found that for me in particular, hunting and fishing and going on canoe trips and going on hikes, um, those became the spiritual center of my life. that used to be worship services and reading theological texts. , they were supplanted by the outdoors.

Tony Jones: [00:09:00] The book opens at my ordination day when I was vested with my liturgical garments, and that meant, So much to me on September 7th, 1997, the robe was put on me by the deacons of the church, you know, this kind of thing, and they called me a reverend and laid hands on me.

Tony Jones: I was like, that's all I ever want to do. I want to be a pastor. That's my life calling. Now , many, many years later, those vestments are in the back of a closet, which I can see from where I'm sitting. And the vestments that I wear outdoors, the canoe paddle, the hunting vest, , my favorite pair of leather boots.

Tony Jones: These have become the vestments that I now find sacred.

Tara: Yeah. Yeah. I know for myself especially during the season of when the pandemic arrived, the place that I could go and spend a lot of time.

Tara: Would be [00:10:00] outside , and where I was at that point geographically, I was right by a small lake that had a park and a trail , and I wish I would have counted how many miles acquired on that trail. But I don't really even think that that was the point of it. Point of it was being present and being outdoors and having a sense 

Tara: Of the spirit at work in my heart and mind and body in the outdoors.

Tara: So while it wasn't necessarily a canoe, it was a trail where I discovered that space for myself as well.

Tony Jones: Yeah. Isn't it funny? I think about that too. , during the pandemic, especially like for those many months when the gyms were closed, I couldn't go to the gym. . And I would take like five hour dog walks cause there were really wasn't any work. , you couldn't go anywhere.

Tony Jones: You know, and you can sit there and look at your spouse for only so many hours before you, [00:11:00] and I would take my dog and, just walk and walk and sometimes listen to an audio book, but a lot of times, I mean, the streets were quiet. People weren't even driving around, because there's nowhere to go. and that was really powerful I take these canoe trips into the boundary waters, which is very Northern edge of Minnesota on the border with Canada. And a lot of times I take groups of pastors.

Tony Jones: And I will say that pastors aren't, to generalize always great at taking care of themselves physically. Emotionally, spiritually they're not always great at disconnecting themselves from their mobile devices. So to take pastors into the North woods for five or six days where there's no cell service and you're in a boat paddling, paddling, paddling for four to six hours a day, and then you're setting up a camp and you're starting a fire.

Tony Jones: Sometimes it's pouring rain and sometimes it's hot and the mosquitoes are, you know, whatever. It's like pastors live pretty [00:12:00] comfortable lives it's not that it's not trying, but physically it's a pretty comfortable life. It's not like you're pouring concrete, you know?

Tony Jones: So to get out there and get some blisters on your hands from paddling and having your shoulders a bit sore and sleeping with a rock in the middle of your back under your sleeping bag, it's great. It's very powerful. So I've, taken to doing that and have had a lot of fun doing that.

Tara: There's a quote from your book that I wanted to read to you. And to hear back from you on it a little bit more about the tension I recognize in this. says religion provides a structure up where the vines of our spiritual experiences can grow. The liturgies and hymns and prayers and verses were composed by others, but they approximate my experiences well enough to be a comfort, a framework, a scaffolding.

Tara: A trellis for my faith to climb until they're not so that [00:13:00] until they're not, I think speaks to some of your experience that you've already shared, but there is that tension between your, experience of, faith as a child and your sense of calling to ministry and your success in, working as a pastor and ministry to that point of personal struggle.

Tara: And then that entry into nature. And this new way of engaging in a, spiritual life. And I wonder, is there still a source of, tension between spirituality and nature, or are they in a different relationship? Than they used to be.

Tony Jones: , I wouldn't say there's really a tension. The only tension is whether I pay attention well enough when I'm , in the outdoors. Because, when you go into a church and walk into a worship service, the next 60 minutes are going to be curated did. By the staff of the church, [00:14:00] the pastors and the worship leader and everybody else.

Tony Jones: It's curated to make you reflect on your religious experience. It's talk about God. It's singing songs about God, , and about God's relationship to us. When you go out into nature, that's not curated. You have to do the work , as an individual, like you have to remind yourself or look for signs of God or ask yourself, where is God presenting God's self to me in the midst of these trees and this, mud and this water and this death, , , if you go to a funeral, I guess you see a dead body in, your church , you go on a long hike in the woods and you're going to see dying trees and you're probably going to see maybe the rib cage of a deer that got eaten by a wolf.

Tony Jones: The previous winter and you know, , that's part and parcel of nature, , of the wilderness. , I think almost any religious person, like traditionally religious person, you would ask based on, what you just read, [00:15:00] you'd say, is the religion, the point, they'd be like, no, no, no, no, no, the religion is not the point.

Tony Jones: The relationship with God's the point. And I think from any faith tradition would probably say that it's not the religion I'm in love with. It's what the religion does for me. The religion is an avenue to the divine, you know? But as you and I both know, those organized religions are less and less effective every year at helping Americans get in touch with the divine.

Tony Jones: People are bailing out of, Organized religion at unprecedented rates. The people who are younger than you and me and are part of the Christian deconstruction movement.

Tony Jones: So many of them find Christianity to be. Organized religion to be a suffocating type of environment. And that's where I think for me, at least going out into wild places has kind of Re fired that flame in me for God. [00:16:00] Yeah.

Tara: there is that saying that all those who wander are not lost. For those that might be feeling like they're wandering or deconstructing from organized religion, what encouragement might you offer them? I've watched that. Yeah.

Tony Jones: I think if you inculcate in yourself awareness and practices, when you go out into the wilderness, if you go on nature walks, , if you go on hikes, if you go on a canoe trip, if you take a fishing trip If you're deliberate about having some practice of reflection and awareness , you're going to have much more, , quote unquote, success with finding meaning, finding transcendence in the wild, .

 It's funny that quote. Just yesterday, somebody was asking me about my Boundary Waters trips and he was like, yeah, I mean, how do you, do you use a GPS? And I'm like, no, I'm like, I'm an old school map and compass guy up there because [00:17:00] I kind of want to get lost. And then sometimes, , after we're out there a couple of days, I'll say , who wants to be our orienteer today , I'll show you kind of how to do it, but then. We just start paddling and you tell us where to go. And I've gotten lost on every trip I've ever taken, like including trips.

Tony Jones: I've guided, I've gotten lost on every single trip. I've gone to the wrong portage, ended up in the wrong Lake, you know, can't figure out North from South on a cloud cover day. I think it's part of the journey. And again, Terry, you think about like our ancestors, they got lost all the time.

Tony Jones: Do you remember in the office? are you an office fan? Are you a fan of the office? Okay. So, there's the time Michael Scott is driving and he's following the, It was pre Siri, but it was the GPS voice is like, turn left on this, and he drives right into a lake.

Tony Jones: You know, it's so funny because that's so quaint now, because Google Maps is never wrong now. [00:18:00] But back then 15 years ago, yes, there were times when all those GPS turn by turn directions were not perfect. We'd have like a, garment thing.

Tony Jones: And it was on a kind of a sandbag that sat on your dashboard. Remember that it seems so quaint now, but it was not that long ago. Even then , you'd get lost a lot . And I remember my dad we were going to go on a family driving trip, he'd get , a trip tick from AAA, my mom would sit shotgun and she'd be like, okay, turn left, get off at exit, blah, blah, blah.

Tony Jones: Again, I use Google maps all the time. I'm. Big fan of Google Maps, but we do lose something when we never get lost because I mean, look at Israel, 40 years,

Tara: Wandering and wandering. Yes. There was a trip that my daughter went on with me.

Tara: And it was a super long trip and she was my navigator when she was, It's probably [00:19:00] 14 and we definitely got lost down this winding road somewhere in the South, but finally found our way out. But to this day, if I say, Oh, remember that time we got lost on that road and the man with the shotgun came out to help us and give us directions.

Tony Jones: And you wouldn't, you wouldn't remember that if you hadn't gotten lost, 

Tony Jones: you remember it because you got lost and you not gotten lost. , you'd remember the trip, but you wouldn't remember like that day and those specific circumstances. From the exodus to Chevy chase in vacation, getting lost, is a great kind of dramatic backdrop to a lot of great stories , of human life.

Tara: It is. So I think perhaps I I might look at that quote a little bit differently after our conversation today, instead of being, Oh [00:20:00] no, where's my triptych or my map quest or my Siri to be, Hmm, maybe there's an adventure here 

Tara: that I might miss otherwise. Yeah. I didn't get that. Could you try again?

Tony Jones: Ha ha ha, Siri. She's everywhere. You can't escape her. You got to go up to the boundary waters where she doesn't work anymore.

Tara: Oh my goodness. So The theme or the focus of this podcast, Tony, has been holy shenanigans, how God shows up or the spirit shows up or divine shows up in everyday life. And that's been the conversation that's been going for three years now with folks like you and, and others. But I wonder if you have a holy shenanigans story that you might treat us to today.

Tony Jones: Yeah, sure. A chapter in the book that early readers have been very fond of [00:21:00] is the chapter on dogs. It's called Companions. And, I'm looking here at , my buddy Crosby. He's on the floor here next to me waiting for me to take him on a walk. He's my third dog. , and the way I tell that chapter is that in my adult life, there've been three dogs and they've each walked with me through a different.

Tony Jones: Part of my life and my first dog Beaumont was with me in that first marriage and actually walked out of that house with me on the day that I walked out and never to return. , I was broke. I had been foreclosed on. I was totally out of money. I had put down that dog Beaumont because he was old and sick and his time came to cross the rainbow bridge.

Tony Jones: And Courtney, to whom I'm now married. But she lived in Texas at the time and we were kind of just beginning a long distance love and she mailed me a [00:22:00] check for like 425 because there was a dog for sale by some friends of mine in Wisconsin, and I was broke, but she knew I needed a dog.

Tony Jones: And she sent me this check and I went and bought that dog, Albert. And he was with me for the next 10 years of my life, kind of rebuilding my life,, digging myself out of debt, falling in love with Courtney, getting remarried, getting custody of the kids. Albert was there through that. And then during COVID, he got sick.

Tony Jones: He got lymphoma and we put him down. Now Crosby over here is my new buddy these are hunting dogs, , but they're also house pets and lovers because they're, Labrador retrievers. So they're just the best, you know, they sleep 23 hours a day and. One hour a day, they want to play and lick you to death. It's maybe a little bit different than the, guests who tell about one particular incident. I could tell you about a hundred different incidents with these [00:23:00] dogs, I'll say these dogs have been the Holy spirit to me. Over the last 25 years, they have taught me, as I say in the book to lower my eyes.

Tony Jones: As Christians whether it's an NFL player scoring a touchdown and then , pointing up at the sky, you know, , or in worship, people raise their hands and look up, up, up, up and out, up and out. Like God is up and out. God's out there somewhere in the ether. Right? And these dogs have taught me to lower my eyes to their level, even lower than my own eyes, you know, like to be much more aware of these creatures that cohabit this planet with us and that God has put into our lives.

Tony Jones: And you know, people talk about, Oh, I love my dog. I love my dog. Well, there's a reason we love our dogs. , it's an unprecedented partnership between two species, humans and canines. And they, for many, many eons, helped [00:24:00] us hunt and survive and protected us. And things like that.

Tony Jones: And it's a little different now that we're all civilized and industrialized, but that's it. I'd say those dogs are the holy shenanigans in my life and you know, dogs. So there's always shenanigans there's one story in the book about one of my dogs eating a baseball.

Tony Jones: And, you know, the baseball is. Got a string on the inside of it, you know, it's wound up with a string and then well He had to you know get rid of the string and So I had to put like a plastic bag over my hand and grab one end of the string as he was pooping it out And then he like scooted away Scooted away as I'm pulling the string up That's a little bit of a I mean if you're you got to really love somebody To pull a string out of their poop and out of their butt.

Tony Jones: And I pulled a string out of that dog's butt. And that's not the only thing I've pulled out of a dog's butt. So those dogs are full of Holy shenanigans and I love them for it.

Tara: [00:25:00] So I don't know if this will be part of the conversation later or not , but we're in a point with our 16 year old Beagle where we're coming to the end, like last four days have been very, very hard.

Tony Jones: Yes.

Tony Jones: sorry. Thank you. Thank you. But to think about the perspectives.

Tara: I would have totally missed without the presence of my dog in my life and the dog we had before her totally different creatures. Except, you know, four feet and furry. But you know, one so smart that they knew how to turn on the TV with the remote when we weren't home. And this one so smart that she could knock the peanut butter off the top of the fridge and unscrew it and eat it while we were gone at

Tony Jones: Oh my gosh. That's a Holy shenanigan right there.

Tara: It is, and I think that that's part of why it's such a touching part [00:26:00] of, of Human experience in that intersection with canines, right? As they expand our vision and they do help us to look around and down and life from perspectives that we would be bankrupt without.

Tony Jones: I think as a species, human beings, we tend toward anthropocentrism, right? That we think we're the most important beings walking around on this planet. Maybe most important beings in the cosmos. Sometimes we think that, and religion tends to teach us that too.

Tony Jones: But dogs remind us, no, no, there's a lot of other stuff going on.

Tara: There is, thank you so much for sharing the story of your dogs with us today. Is there anything else that we haven't talked about? you would like to share with folks?

Tony Jones: I guess I would just say. Finally, that I grew up in a church that was out of the reformed [00:27:00] tradition which if people don't know that, it means kind of like Presbyterian. I was congregationalist, but came out of that tradition. That's not that different from Methodist or disciples or whatever. The sanctuary of my youth and of my ministry is full of right angles. And everything's done , from the Presbyterian book of worship, it's called decently and in order. And, every week was pretty much the same, , , the order of worship. We did the invocation and then we did the opening hymn and then there was a welcome and then call to worship. And then there's, , confession of sin and an assurance of forgiveness and special music and an offering and a sermon, you know, , off the top of my head, I could just tell you what the order of service was.

Tony Jones: If it went over an hour. There was a big talk at staff meeting on Tuesday morning. People don't like it when we go over an hour, we got to keep it 55 to 58 minutes, very regular, very orderly. [00:28:00] My life has not been orderly. My life, as I've told you, has been messy. It's full of brokenness. and I go into the wilderness and there are no right angles. Everything is a tangle of branches and roots and stems of things growing and of things dying. And you know, a tree that's down in the woods is dead. Except because it's fell over in a windstorm ten years ago. Except that it's a home for insects and And mushrooms and voles, you know, and from it is growing up new shoots of a new tree.

Tara: life emerging. yeah, yeah, right. New life emerging from the old. so that in a nutshell is why the wilderness has ministered to me at this point in my life in a way that, [00:29:00] Organized religion was not able to.

Tara: Thank you. 

Tony Jones: Well, tell me since COVID ended, how do you hope to renew the experience you had during those walks when you were outside?

Tara: Well I had to get up and take care of my dog very early this morning. And that was a very centering experience going into too much detail of taking care of her and tidying her up and things.

Tony Jones: hmm.

Tara: But because once I got her all wrapped up and cozy again I put on my sneakers.

Tara: At six in the morning and just went out and enjoyed the world around me and the outside.

Tony Jones: Fantastic.

Tara: So being in that space, even though it's a different space, I don't have a lake to look at from where I am. I'm more in a city environment now, but there is beauty there. 

Tony Jones: Yeah. 

Tara: things to be present [00:30:00] to that had I not been up this morning, I would have missed.

Tony Jones: Yeah. 

Tony Jones: Well, there's a little parting gift from your dog.

Tara: Hmm. Yes. Well, she was my buddy when she was really little. Cause she was so wild that if i didn't run her at least two or three miles a day. She would be a maniac in the house.

Tony Jones: Gosh.

Tara: So , that is apropos. Yeah, So Tony, where can people connect to your work?

Tony Jones: I'm on all the social media places. You can just look up my name, Tony Jones or Reverend Hunter. The book, God of wild places. com is , by the best, easiest thing to remember to type that in God of wild places. com will take you to my website. Tell you all about the book, different places you can buy it.

Tony Jones: It's a beautiful hardcover book with many thanks to my publisher for making such a beautiful book. But it's also an e book, of course, and also going to [00:31:00] be on Audible, all coming out April 2nd.

Tara: Oh, that's awesome. Tony, I wonder if you might offer an invocation or a blessing for the folks in the Holy Shenanigans neighborhood and all of us who wander,

Tony Jones: I'm going to read to you the epigraph from the final chapter of the book, and this is written by my friend Barbara Brown Taylor in her book, Leaving Church. Mm hmm. She writes, I know plenty of people who find God most reliably in books, in buildings, and even in other people. I have found God in all of these places, too.

Tony Jones: But the most reliable meeting place for me has always been creation. Where other people see acreage, timber, soil, and river frontage, I see God's body, or at least as much of it as I'm able to see. In the only wisdom I have at my disposal, the creator does not live apart from creation, but [00:32:00] spans and suffuses it.

Tony Jones: When I take a breath. God's Holy Spirit enters me. When a cricket speaks to me, I talk back. Like everything else on earth, I am an embodied soul who leaps to life when I recognize my kin. And she concludes, if this makes me a pagan, then I am a grateful one.

Tara: thank you for that blessing and for sharing your journey with our audience here at holy shenanigans podcast. I am very excited , to see how this book meets people and invites them to just get outside 

Tony Jones: I hope so. Thanks so much for having me.

Tara: You're welcome. Thank you. Holy shenanigans podcast listeners for being with us on this adventure that leads us to love in all sorts of ways. May you be well, may you be at peace and [00:33:00] know that you are always beloved.

Tony Jones: Amen.

Tara: I am your Holy Shenanigans muse You Tara Lamont Eastman. Thank you for joining us this week for holy shenanigans that surprise, encourage, redirect, and turn life upside down all in the name of love. This is an unpredictable spiritual adventure that is always sacred, but never stuffy.

Tara: Gratitude to Ian Eastman for sound editing and to HSP listeners for supporting our work with this podcast. If you would like to help support HSP, please contribute at. www. buymeacoffee. com backslash Tara L. Eastman. Thanks also to this week's special guest, the Reverend Hunter, Tony Jones, for joining us for this special episode that I want to dedicate to our dog friends, Aggie and [00:34:00] Kalua.

Tara: If you've been listening to HSP, you're sure to have heard episodes focused on the Wild Goose Festival. www. buymeacoffee. com And while summer might seem a ways away, it's only a little while before the Wild Goose 2024 will be here. Next time at HSP, we'll be visiting with Timothy Kerr, Sponsor Relations and Wings Coordinator for the Wild Goose Festival.

Tara: Be sure to listen next time to learn more about the gathering that's coming this summer, July 11th through 14th , In Union Grove, North Carolina, as we learn more about spirit, justice, music, and art. Until next time, keep wandering, keep watching, keep on the lookout for the sacred in every day. [00:35:00]